How does a “crazy idea” become a unicorn company?
In a very special episode, hosts Thomas McGrath and Tim Flower are joined by Nexthink CEO Pedro Bados, along with his fellow co-founders Patrick Hertzog and Vincent Bieri. In a wide-ranging conversation – both a trip down memory lane and a look to the future – the minds behind Nexthink discuss:
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
You’re listening to Digital Employee Experience, a show for IT change makers. Let’s get into the show.
Tom McGrath (00:09):
Hello, change-makers. Welcome to the show. I’m Tom McGrath, joined as ever by Tim flower. Tim, how are you today? How are you feeling about today’s episode?
Tim Flower (00:17):
Tom, I’ve been looking forward to this one for a while, right? These are our founders. And looking forward to words of wisdom from these guys. But feeling really good. Thanks. How about you?
Tom McGrath (00:28):
I’m doing good. I’m like you, I’m very excited because, of course, we are both of us Nexthinkers. Which is to say that we both work for the newly confirmed Swiss technology unicorn, Nexthink. And today, as you’ve mentioned, we have the privilege of welcoming the free, original Nexthinkers, for founding Nexthinkers, to the show. And hopefully on route to talking to them, we’re going to learn something about what it takes to found a billion-dollar company. Sound good to you, Tim?
Tim Flower (00:54):
Let’s rock and roll.
Tom McGrath (00:56):
Let’s get into it. So first of all, by welcoming our first special guest Nexthink co-founder and CEO, and my boss’s boss’s boss, at least, Pedro Bados. Pedro, welcome to the show.
Pedro Bados (01:07):
Thank you. Thank you, Thomas and Tim, a pleasure and congratulations for this great podcast.
Tom McGrath (01:12):
Thank you so much. Are you in the mood, Pedro, for a trip down memory lane today?
Pedro Bados (01:16):
I am. Yeah. I was looking at different pictures yesterday to be ready for the podcast today. I’m really excited to do it with Vincent and Patrick. So thanks for having me.
Tom McGrath (01:30):
Brilliant, brilliant. We’ll get to them momentarily, but first of all, let’s go back to the very beginning, Pedro, to your childhood in Spain where you grew up. And where I’ve heard you say before, there wasn’t very much in the way of encouragement about becoming an entrepreneur. So I wonder if you could begin by telling us something about that environment, where you come from and what that was like?
Pedro Bados (01:49):
Yeah. As you said, I grew up in Spain. I come from a family in which my parents are doctors, actually my whole family are medical doctors, [Inaudible 00:02:01]. So computer science and technology was good, but you know what they say about the doctors, they are not really early adopters. Probably the ones that are still writing down the things on paper and not in computers.
Tom McGrath (02:15):
Doctors aren’t early adopters. That’s a good rhyme.
Pedro Bados (02:18):
Exactly. So yeah, I mean, I was obviously probably assisting to conversations about people with illnesses in the dining table, more than real technology. But I grew up in an environment in which I always thought that learning and understanding new things was really important, and technology was always like magic for me. So the possibility to really access to new types of information, creating your own… At that time, your own games, or coding, all that was really a new world for me. I developed this passion for computers and for technology. And then I had the privilege to study in a greatest school in Zaragoza, and then at the EPFL in Switzerland, and here we are.
Tom McGrath (03:07):
What was your earliest memory of a computer? Of technology?
Pedro Bados (03:13):
Yeah, I think it was really… In Spain, actually, we don’t have Santa Claus. We have something which is called the Three Magic Kings. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that, but that’s [crosstalk 00:03:24].
Tom McGrath (03:25):
The Three Magic kings.
Pedro Bados (03:26):
So interesting enough, so I actually wanted a computer, I was asking the Three Magic Kings every year to bring me a computer, and they didn’t do it for many years. But when I was turning nine, I remember I had a little bit of money from my grandparents and all that, and I said to my mom, “Look, if I give this money to the Three Magic Kings, would they put a little bit more money and they buy the computer for me?” And my mom said, “Well, maybe. Give me the money.” And that year, I got my first computer. It was an Spectrum, 125… Sorry, 128K, kilobytes of memory. That should be enough for anything at that time. With a tape. And yeah, that was my first computer. I was nine years old. I was able to code in basic programming language. I was able to play with some games. It was like magic for me, as I said.
Tom McGrath (04:30):
So you kind of inadvertently invented Amazon as well when you were trying to get the Three Magic Kings to deliver you a computer. That’s interesting. So when did you decide you wanted to become an entrepreneur, or maybe pursue technology as a profession?
Pedro Bados (04:47):
Well, that was quite late in my case. Because as I said, I came to Switzerland when I was 21. At that time, I really wanted to do probably a PhD in artificial intelligence, become a professor, become a researcher, that was really my passion. I still have a big passion for research, for really going into the details of the things. When I was in the university, I developed this technology about end-user modeling. I had the opportunity to meet Patrick and then we had this opportunity to really create a company and to… And then we said, “Look, we are very young.” We did not have families at that time, me and Patrick. So we had the weekends, and we had the evenings. So we gave it a try, and one thing after the other, the company developed, and here we are. But it was not really a conscious decision to become an entrepreneur.
Tom McGrath (05:48):
Okay. Well, with that, let’s welcome Patrick next into the show. Patrick Hertzog, co-founder of Nexthink, and user experience officer here today, still with us, making a really key contribution. Patrick, a warm welcome to the Digital Employee Experience show.
Patrick Hertzog (06:03):
Thank you very much.
Tom McGrath (06:04):
And of course here, Nexthinker’s a unicorn. I mean, do you think the attitudes in Europe are changing towards innovation, towards technology, towards entrepreneurship at the moment?
Patrick Hertzog (06:15):
Yeah, I really think so. I think we are seeing more and more example of successful companies in Europe, both in B2C and B2B, in fintech. There is a lot of different domains where we have more and more successful companies, successful startups. And also I think it’s also thanks to a lot of help that entrepreneurs can get in the different countries. But I know, especially in Switzerland, and I can see that there is more and more help available for entrepreneurs in Switzerland. Much more than what we had back in 2004 when we created the Nexthink. Of course, we had some help there from the school, from the EPFL, from the state, from the country a little bit, but nowadays there is much, much more things that exist.
Patrick Hertzog (07:05):
For instance, there are programs in Switzerland like VentureLab. There is industries helping a lot of startups. I know that in the EPFL, because I’m still involved in the EPFL, that there is a lot of mentorship programs as well. So there is more and more help to create this new value based on startups in Switzerland. And I think that applies also for many countries in Europe. There is a lot of technology hub that are growing in almost every country. And also I hope that the story of Nexthink can also help growing this wheel of young people, of students to create new companies.
Tom McGrath (07:44):
Brilliant. Thanks Patrick. And also welcome to Vincent Bieri. Vincent welcome to the show.
Vincent Bieri (07:44):
Hey, thanks for having me here.
Tom McGrath (07:57):
It’s our pleasure. And tell us something about your background, Vincent. Patrick’s already mentioned that Switzerland did provide some incentives, and cultural incentives around technology and entrepreneurship. Was that something you experienced too?
Vincent Bieri (08:10):
Yeah. My background is being Swiss, so first. And as you may have an initial anticipation with people, I maybe very on time, but not very innovative or very business-driven. I think this is a little bit of a myth. So despite all the programs, and all the activities from research to entrepreneurship, and all the other help, I think we have to look back a little bit. Because to know if a country is a good place to grow and develop a business, it’s not about what you do right now, it’s also about the history. Because the culture you create is not just through a program we launch, but I think it’s really about, almost is it in your DNA or not, right? And you may not know but there are a lot of Swiss people that have invented things that… And created business out of things we do maybe use or manipulate every day.
Vincent Bieri (09:12):
But have you eaten a chocolate bar this week? Maybe yes, right? That’s been invented in Switzerland, by a guy named Daniel Peter. And then at the origin of his venture that he started with only Nestle, which is the Nestle corporation. Maybe if you’re in the US you’ve heard about Chevrolet Motors, actually the founder of Chevrolet is a Swiss guy, Louis Chevrolet. So there are a lot of things, and even in research, and not just to mention one name, Albert Einstein. So very back in the years, right? Switzerland has been not only innovative, but actually launching very successful businesses that even still exist today. And closer to our time, I can name Logitech, Swatch, Nespresso. These companies a few decades ago, they were like us in 2004, a few guys in a small office. And then, of course, if you have great universities, great mentorship programs, and great leading companies that shows the way, of course it helps, but you need that background as well, I believe. Coming from there, I think we all get, in Switzerland, inspired one way or another by the successful venture, and inspiring people.
Tim Flower (10:33):
So Pedro expand a little bit. I mean, the group has talked so far about the technology, and the aspiration for bringing this to market, talk a little bit, we have a broad audience, right? We’ve got aspiring techies, but we also have people that are further along in their career. Talk a little bit about what you were focused on as a grad student, maybe either individually or as a group. And were you laser-focused on solving your technology problem, or were you thinking about the business and bringing it to market? At what point did you make that transition to say, “Hey, this might actually work.” And how did the group move from being the techie into the entrepreneurship?
Pedro Bados (11:09):
Great question. In my particular case, I’m still a bit techie. Like every engineer I’m really passionate about the technology, how the things work. More than really, sometimes the amount of money that you can create out of it. In my particular case, I was developing a technology during my master project for intrusion detection, so more on the security space. So we’re trying to model the normal user behavior in front of computers. So all of a sudden, there is an identity theft, the system is able to detect it. And then the EPFL, the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology, where I was working in Lausanne. They came to me and said, “Look, this is a great technology. Why don’t you try to patent it? And then maybe you can create a company out of it.”
Pedro Bados (12:00):
So actually, it was not my idea, it was the university’s idea. And I think it’s very important in universities, they incentivize these type of things, right? And at that time I thought it was a little bit crazy, but why not. Trying out this thing, and then if it doesn’t work, we can always go for a PhD later. And I really tried. And then it was, listening to customers, trying to understand that customers love technology, but they love outcomes, and they love value. That comes at value creation is very important. So little by little, I shifted a little bit more on the business side.
Tim Flower (12:37):
How did the group gel? At what point through the process did you guys… And maybe for Patrick on this one, how did the three of you meet? Right? What was it like putting up a notice in the dorm room, looking for a drummer to put in the band together? Or were you the three amigos together from the outset and worked? How did the group come about?
Patrick Hertzog (12:58):
So on my side, I was already working in a company. It was a small company, initially, a startup. Already I was not the founder, but I was one of the first employees that has been bought by another company. It was nothing to do with what Nexthink is doing. It was about planning, business travel, a completely different domain. And I was working in that company, and I still had some links with the EPFL. We were doing some research project with artificial intelligence laboratory. And this is how I came up to know and to meet Pedro. And we met, we discussed a bit the project, so Pedro had a very good idea, collecting all this information about the end-user, what they are doing on their computer, all that stuff.
Patrick Hertzog (13:46):
But he realized from the beginning that collecting and analyzing all these data was very powerful, but there was a missing link. We had to represent and to present that information back to the user with a user interface, with some data visualization. And that was our area of expertise back in that time. So that’s how we met and then we… Yeah, it was an opportunity, I jumped on that opportunity. As Pedro said earlier, we had nothing to lose back at that time. So it was how we met, basically.
Tim Flower (14:21):
Pedro Bados (14:22):
Maybe it’s interesting, Patrick, to mention that one of the first projects we worked together, well, I don’t know if we call it project, it’s really the name of the company, right? Finding that was the name of the company. And people they say, “How do you come up with this name of Nexthink?” And I remember Patrick and listing down 10 different names, all a little bit related to artificial intelligence, thinking forward, forward thinking, next thing. And then we checked all the web domains, which ones were available. Nexthink was the only domain .com that was available. So that was the reason why we picked the name of Nexthink. Obviously, we didn’t know that it was going to become such a big company, but we thought it was important to have the .com available. And of course we didn’t have money to buy it from someone else. So I remember that very clearly.
Tim Flower (15:15):
That’s great. What do you remember from that period, Vincent?
Vincent Bieri (15:18):
So I would say two things, first was the meeting was Pedro and Patrick, the first one I had, which not at that meeting really made me very excited, or thinking deeply about building this venture together. But when you go back home and over the next days, weekends, you basically keep having this in mind. I’ve seen this stuff and this idea of measuring this behavior, and normality, abnormality of IT activities and from computer application networks, but neither Pedro nor Patrick has really said anything about what we can really do with that. It was really like, “This is what we can do. Or, “We think we can do that for an entire enterprise.” And I was there not really to initially, actually, start a venture with them, but I was there to actually analyze for an external client, an investor in that case. I was doing some advisory for them.
Vincent Bieri (16:37):
And that’s how I met, just sometimes life is as it is. And then I called back and I said, “I think we should meet again. But I don’t want to rediscuss for what the first purpose I came, but really for how I could be part of that project because there was something in it. I don’t know what. And when this happens, you have, of course, more uncertainty than actual validation. But this is what is about entrepreneurship, right? You need to actually be comfortable with that. You need to be comfortable with, I don’t know what to do, but I feel it. I don’t know how it will actually… We get any outcome out of that. There is a lot of risks, so what? Right?
Vincent Bieri (17:20):
And that’s what it is about. And the second thing I remember is once we agreed about a little bit, so yeah, we could do that together. This is the value each and every one could bring. I started talking a little bit around to some friends and some very trusted professional people I knew. The main feedback I remember taking was from those who I trust very well, and I trusted their judgment, was to tell me you’re completely crazy. Actually, to quit your current job, well-paid, nice environment, and so on, to do that insane thing that I don’t think it will really work. But then I realized afterwards actually being called crazy when you want to start a venture is actually what has to happen because somehow only the crazy one actually attempt the impossible and eventually do it.
Tom McGrath (18:17):
If it doesn’t look crazy, you haven’t got an original idea, right?
Vincent Bieri (18:21):
Probably. And I think we can learn a lot at school. We can learn a lot on the job. We can get help from mentors, supporting initiatives, money from investors, but what you can never get is the entrepreneurship attitude. I think whether you have it or not, and if you have it, you feel comfortable in facing doubts, uncertainty and risk. And if you don’t, you better add value in a different way. And it’s okay, right? There are many ways to add value in society and business. And I know some great people who are fantastic to join teams once companies have launched, and some others are much better to actually launch it and maybe stop working with it when it’s rolling like an operational business. So asking yourself those tough questions is very important. Because if you don’t, you might be willing to do something you’re not really built for. And I think, yeah, you have to be a little bit crazy and be called crazy. And probably there is something there,
Tom McGrath (19:31):
Pedro, on that theme, how close did you come to not pursuing this path around the time that you developed the technology? There must’ve been opportunities to step off it or take another route? Were there any that stand out to you as particular crossroads?
Pedro Bados (19:48):
Yeah, I actually was thinking about that the other day with my wife. I actually applied for an IBM position while I was doing this, at the very beginning of this project. And actually I got refused. Basically, they said, it was not good enough or-
Tom McGrath (20:08):
Or ambitious enough.
Pedro Bados (20:10):
Fitting the profile. It was at security department at IBM, a great company. And for me, it was the dream place.
Tom McGrath (20:21):
Pedro Bados (20:22):
And I said, “Look, that’s maybe an opportunity.” So that probably was the closest moment be away from the Nexthink path.
Tom McGrath (20:37):
You’d have taken it, yeah? You’d have taken that offer if it had come through?
Pedro Bados (20:42):
Tom McGrath (20:42):
Pedro Bados (20:42):
I had an eye for that. IBM was really like a great company full of innovation.
Tim Flower (20:49):
So Pedro, nine or 10 years ago, you took a risk with the business and took a flight over to the United States. And you stopped into a customer who told you, I’m not interested. You stopped into the Hartford, and I will publicly apologize to you because you only made it as far into the building as our coffee stand. He didn’t even get you up into a conference room because you came in with one of your partners at the time, Dwayne. And the pitch was about analytics, right? 2011, 2012. We were in the midst of our wind seven migration. And I listened to this, and I said, “You know what? I don’t need analytics. And I don’t know how I would sell it internally. I don’t know how I would pitch it. I don’t know what it solves.” How did you take that risk? And those are good memories for me too, that nine or 10 years back, how did you take that feedback from us? And I’m sure you got it from others and turn it from a negative, into a positive How did you turn that around and build success?
Pedro Bados (21:51):
I have to say that actually you were very polite, because after the meeting I thought it was a very good meeting. No, of course. I mean, I don’t think you were the only one at that time that they were looking at end-user analytics, something really must to have for every organization. I think people were, that time, realizing that the data center and maybe the network had a little bit more priority. And then the users that were at the end. The situation changed during the following years, in which the end-user computing became much more central. To the IT team, there was more complexity. And of course, the whole situation changed.
Pedro Bados (22:41):
So don’t worry about it, Tim. I understand perfectly why you reacted in the way that you reacted. I took it like a very positive feedback. Do you know for me, coming from Europe into the US I always appreciated the US customers. That they were very positive. They were very optimistic. They only saw the opportunity, and I always had very good memories from those initial meetings in the US. I always learned a lot, and they were very open, big organizations like Hartford, and trying to understand the challenges. So very good memories. And of course, that were learnings that we took into a product management, and we developed the product.
Tom McGrath (23:21):
I’m actually interested Pedro, and honing in on that period where Nexthink wasn’t quite sure which direction to commit to, right Security or what we now call digital employee experience. And security came first, as you’ve already said. That was the original intention behind the original invention, right? When did you start to see that there’d be an alternative path and what made you tend in that direction ultimately?
Pedro Bados (23:46):
Yeah, I would say from the very beginning, we were between security and operations. Because what we call visibility, is normally something associated to operations. I think it was staff for us like it is for many companies, to really give up on a huge market like security in order to focused on another market that was not really created. So that was the typical decision of, okay, do we want to be a king in this a smaller market, big enough? Or do we want to be the 10th player in a huge market, which is a security market? These two alternatives, they have the best outcome for us. And I have to say it took us really a while to make up our mind, probably a little bit too long. But the moment that we really focused on employee experience, end-user experience, operations, I think the company just took off, really. It was a critical moment in the company. And it was probably about six, eight years ago.
Tom McGrath (24:53):
And Patrick, was there a moment once you’d made that decision where you knew you’d made the right decision, and things really took off What do you remember about that period?
Patrick Hertzog (25:02):
Yeah. Well, the funny thing is that actually the core idea of Nexthink never changed. It was really to understand what’s happening from the end-user perspective. What has changed over the years is really how we position ourselves, or the messaging, or which problem do we want to solve, and to whom we want to solve that problem. That’s really what has changed along the years. So it was definitely not a straight path as Pedro mentioned. We had a lot of back and forth all the time.
Patrick Hertzog (25:32):
And also, I remember a few times together with Vincent, we were looking back at some materials we’d had to return five years before, and we were saying, “Well, that was not bad. That’s actually what we are positioning ourselves today.” But in between, we changed our minds, so we took a bit of time to find ourselves. And really to find the right problem to solve. And also to be on time in the market, because the timing is also very important. So I think that, really, when we started a few years ago, talking about digital experience that we, really after some time, we felt that traction, and we realized that the stars started to align for us.
Tom McGrath (26:16):
Vincent, I have a big picture question for you. I’m interested in your thoughts on the significance of the wider space that we inhabit, which you could call the employee experience base, in general? What are your thoughts on the significance of that space? I mean, would it be fair to say the employee experience is almost a movement that turns us into consumers of work, in some sense? I mean, what do you reflect on it?
Vincent Bieri (26:40):
I think the definition of work as a whole has really changed. What probably our grandfather or our parents meant about work is completely different from today. And even from the difference between what I believe work-wise when I started working, if I ever really worked, but just kidding. But when I was going for a job or even starting Nexthink, work activity, I think, that I had in mind, what it is, if I would have given a definition. I think if you take somebody you hire now that is 25, 20 years old, I think there is a big difference. And the difference is that I think we have gone into work, has to deliver a purpose, right? It has to make sense much more than before.
Vincent Bieri (27:39):
And that is what generates engagement. I don’t think, ever, 50 years ago, if you talk to parents, grandparents, they would say, “Yeah, we felt so engaged at work. Or, “I was delighted.” And the purpose, the reason we do that, I don’t think that was the case, right? Because first of all, 99% of people work just for the day to get the food they need for the day, for the family. And there was nothing anything else above it, right?
Tom McGrath (28:09):
Vincent Bieri (28:09):
Now, we went from going from just working to get the simple basic for ourselves and family to grow the volume of amount of things we can consume and buy to nowadays being much more into, okay, why we do what we do, and have this kind of thinking. And therefore the experience I leave at work, and not just at work, but anything around it. So the way I will talk about my job, or about what we will live with colleagues and friends, and around it. That has changed. So therefore there was, I think, a movement of engagement when we talk about work, and that’s what the experience people want at work. They want to feel that something is happening, not for them, as an impact of what they do, right? And I think that is basically the change, right? We are going from measuring work in quantity, I remember, how many hours? How many emails? How many, I don’t know, whatever things you’ve produced over a day, a week and so on? As the judge, even paid about it, to more active experience. And that has outperformed a quantitative measurement.
Vincent Bieri (29:32):
And by the way, I think this is so the case for the way people are compensated, paid. We used to value things that nowadays are maybe even undervalued. People prefer to probably have less goodies, right? That the money that they get comes from something that is ethically good, that doesn’t generate too much, I don’t know, impact on climate change, things like that. So it’s not just the purpose of the company’s work and outcome, but also the way that gets obtained, that has changed. So I think there was a big change here. Yes.
Tom McGrath (30:15):
Very interesting points Vincent, and it actually sparks the next question for Pedro, which is about his work as a founder CEO. One of the things I’ve always assumed, if you are a CEO, if you start a business, if we’re to learn something from sort of large and successful as Nexthink, is that one of your driving aspirations is to build an environment in which other people work. A place for others to live in almost, right? I mean, how motivating has that been for you Pedro? And what kind of environment and atmosphere have you sought to implement and create at Nexthink?
Pedro Bados (30:50):
Well, I think personally for me, it’s very important. I mean, as I said before, if I hadn’t done the Nexthink, probably I would be teaching at a university. So all the thing about coaching, created our community. Seeing people grow in their jobs, seeing people getting value. For me personally, it’s more important than overall growth of the business, profits, and things like that.
Tom McGrath (31:16):
Pedro Bados (31:17):
That’s my culture. And it is who I am. And I think it’s the same definitely for Patrick and Vincent. But also for many of the people that we hired at the beginning of Nexthink. So that created some culture in which people they were helping each other. Also, being demanding. It doesn’t mean we help each other without being demanding that we have to develop a product. We have to make sure customers they get value. But that was really important.
Pedro Bados (31:48):
I think at some point, the company’s culture is very linked to the founders culture. And I think at Nexthink, at least I’m feeling a little bit that that’s really true. So very important for me to create this environment. And from the very beginning as what Vincent was saying, we were very mindful of people that come to work also to have an impact in their community, to have really an impact in their customers. So delighting people at work for us, it’s not only delighting our customers, is delighting our employees, delighting our communities. And we make sure every year we communicate all the initiatives that we are doing in these three areas. So very important for us.
Tom McGrath (32:31):
Okay all, it’s time for the last question. And it’s one for each of you. It’s this, if you had one piece of advice for a young entrepreneur or a young startup what would it be? Starting with you, Patrick.
Patrick Hertzog (32:44):I would give two pieces of advices. First is to talk as early as possible to your customers or potential customers. I remember that just not even one month after creating Nexthink, we were meeting customer and showing the
product. Did we have a product? No, of course not. We didn’t, but with Photoshop you can do miracles. So we are already showing the product, getting feedback, and trying to improve it. So I think that’s important not to stay alone in a lab or in a garage, to just focus in doing many months on what you think is a good idea. But to confront it to the reality. And the second piece of advice would be to always delight your users.
Tom McGrath (33:26):
Well said. Vincent, you’re up next, what would yours be?
Vincent Bieri (33:31):
I’m asking people the following question, taking the mountain analogy. But I said you’re about to attempt climbing and summit this virgin mountains. Because no one else has climbed ever before. Why do you do it? Do you do it for the world to see you up there or for you to see better the world out there? Because I deeply believe that if you want to be starting a business for yourself to actually reflect and change yourself in front of others, that won’t work, right? You really need to do it because you believe in the things you’re going to impact and the things you’re going to do. And I think that that is a tough question to ask yourself. The question is easy, and accepting the answer is very important. And I think it’s one of the, I think, criteria of successful entrepreneurs, to be humble enough while being very ambitious, right? But humble enough to accept reality about the answers of tough questions like this one. And there are others, but I think this one is very important.
Tom McGrath (34:44):
Fantastic. And Pedro, the last word belongs to you. What would your advice be?
Pedro Bados (34:51):
For me, would be really, don’t forget to have fun. Very important to have fun because it’s going to be a long journey every day. Be ambitious, very important. And last but not least, make sure you hire the best people you can. I’ve seen many entrepreneurs that try to optimize costs hire people, the best people are always a great investment. So that’s the piece of advice for a new entrepreneur.
Tom McGrath (35:22):
A great way to end the show. Gentlemen, it’s been lovely having you all on board. Thank you so much.
Pedro Bados (35:27):
Patrick Hertzog (35:27):
Thank you very much.
Tim Flower (35:28):
Thanks guys. Always great to see you guys. Take care.
Patrick Hertzog (35:31):
[crosstalk 00:35:31], I enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
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